Episode 2: Tom Cooper

Tom Cooper

Season 1 Episode 2

[00:00:00]

 

Irene McAleese: Welcome to the Micro Mobility Report Podcast. I'm Irene McAleese, co founder of SeeSense.

Phil Latz: And I'm Phil Latz, founder of the Micromobility Report.

Irene McAleese: Today, we're excited to share with you our conversation with Tom Cooper, the Australia New Zealand General Manager of Beam, a global micromobility company undergoing impressive growth in the APAC region. With 20, 000 vehicles and a team of almost 400 in Australia and New Zealand alone, Tom's insights into Beam's success, as well as the challenges along the way, make for interesting listening.

We hope you enjoy our discussion with Tom Cooper.

Phil Latz: Well, Tom, welcome to the [00:01:00] Micromobility Report Podcast.

Tom Cooper: Thanks so much for having me, Phil. Excited to be here.

Phil Latz: Excellent. So let's start with a bit of overview. We might start first actually with yourself, your personal overview. How long have you been with Beam?

Tom Cooper: I've been with Beam for almost four years now, um, and in the micro mobility industry for almost six, so quite a long time, uh, moving e scooters and e bikes around cities in Australia and New Zealand.

Phil Latz: So talk a little bit about what you were doing before you joined Beam.

Tom Cooper: So before I joined Beam, I was an accountant and I also had a business with my brother that was in allied health bookings. So I'd been in the startup space a little bit, but my background is an accountant, so number crunching.

Phil Latz: Well, we won't hold that against you, don't worry. And what attracted you to join Beam?

Tom Cooper: Uh, so I was having some time off, um, and I was in London, [00:02:00] um, and we, my brother and I, we rode the Boris bikes, I think they're called something else now, but around London, and it was just such a great way to see a city. Um, we'd been to London previously, but we'd never used the bikes and we decided for a couple of weeks, we're going to use the bikes and we just got to see so much more of the city.

And we discovered different cafes, shops, et cetera. And it just worked really, really well. And I thought, wow, this is a great way to, to get around, um, a city. And so I came back to Australia and didn't think much more of it. And then it was January, probably November, um, 2018. And, uh, some friends called and said they were thinking of starting an e scooter business. I said, look, I'm not that interested, but I'll, I'll, I'll And so they're like, no, just come down and ride one. And I, um, went down to Collingwood where they had a warehouse and jumped on a scooter. And I called my now [00:03:00] wife 10 minutes later and said, sweetie, I think I'm, I'm going to do this. And, you know, we've been doing scooters ever since and it hasn't been easy.

Look, there has been lots of ups and downs and whenever you're trying to change. Legislation or regulations. Um, it's a slow, painful process, and I don't even think we're there yet. Um, I think we've made huge strides, but two of the largest cities, um, in Australia, Melbourne has just got a program over the last year or so, and Sydney doesn't have a, an E Scooter program, um, except for one small trial that Beam runs in Kogarah.

So, think there's still a huge amount of scope for growth in Australia and New Zealand for micro mobility.

Phil Latz: Okay. So let's, let's switch the focus a little bit to the company. So Beam is actually Singapore based multinational if you like, but um, how many years has it been operating in Australia?

Tom Cooper: So Beam launched in Australia [00:04:00] in 2019. So it's been in Australia now for almost 5 years. Yes,

Phil Latz: Okay. And give us an overview of how many bikes and scooters across the total company. And then in particular, Australia and New Zealand, and also just to clarify, you're responsible for New Zealand as well. Are you not personally?

Tom Cooper: yep, yep.

Australia, New Zealand. Um, so globally Beam's in 100 cities and has about 80, 000 vehicles on the ground. Um, and then closer to home in Australia and New Zealand, we're in 38 markets. About 20, 000 vehicles.

Phil Latz: Okay. So, I just was on the, um, your LinkedIn post and it, there's some pretty impressive milestones in a, in a recent post that you put out. Would you like to highlight any of those?

Tom Cooper: I'm not sure which one that is Phil, but, um, we've been, yeah, we've been really fortunate over the last, um, yeah, four or five years to grow [00:05:00] a sustainable business. And I think I can speak for anyone that's in micro mobility. Yeah. Everyone is very passionate, but it is a hard business, um, to, to run. Um, you have a lot of moving assets around cities.

And so we've been fortunate to build a strong team. Um, and make sure that we can deliver what councillors are looking for on a consistent basis. And that enables us to put devices down and people to enjoy. And that's one thing that I love is actually seeing people riding our vehicles. And they often have a smile on their face and that makes all the hard work, um, you know, really worthwhile.

So I feel very fortunate to, to be involved in a company that gets to move people around every day.

Phil Latz: No, it's great. Now, just one final thing from me. You mentioned the word team then, are you able to share approximately what your head count might be in Australia and New Zealand?

Tom Cooper: Um, yeah, so we have, um, close to 300 or almost 400, um, full time and casuals [00:06:00] across the region.

Phil Latz: That might surprise a fair few people just how large that headcount is.

Tom Cooper: Yeah, it does. Um, you know, we're, we're a pretty big business now. Um, we're in, you know, 38 markets, so there's a lot of vehicles out in the street. And, uh, you know, providing a service is about delivering, you know, quality, consistent service. And we're very lucky to have a team that does that for us every day.

Irene McAleese: I actually loved hearing you speak about what got you excited about scooters at the outset. I mean, I know our listeners won't be able to see your face, but I could see you genuinely lit up. Um, your eyes seemed, excited when you were talking about the first time you rode that scooter and that, that kind of buzz and the feeling.

And, um, I've experienced that too. The first time I rode them, it is, it is a sense of freedom. Um, and childlike excitement, I think, almost. So I think it's fantastic, to see you with that enthusiasm still as a CEO, [00:07:00] even though you have all the pressures and the complexity of running a business like that to, to see your face genuinely light up, um, at that, that buzz and wanting to share that with, with people.

Um, and I'm also interested to hear that you experienced, um, you know, was it scooters in, was it scooters in London or bikes? Did you say

bike? It was Bikes. in

Tom Cooper: this was back in 2018.

Irene McAleese: I was thinking because the Scooter Trial started much, much later in London. But yeah, it's definitely a great way to, to see the city.

Um, Also really interesting to hear that you're an accountant by training because there's so, so much, um, talk really about, you know, microbility companies needing to manage their EBITDA and profitability and, and all of this. So really this is where that, that passion and interest needs to come together with a good business sense in being able to run this company, which is clearly what you've been able to do to, to be so successful.

Um, I was thinking though that, you know, [00:08:00] sounds you, you guys have had some really phenomenal success in Australia, which is great to hear. Uh, maybe we just want to sort of understand though from a little bit more about what are the challenges that you might've experienced, um, throughout that growth.

Um, what, you know, has it all been easy sailing or easy riding, so to speak,

Tom Cooper: No, it certainly hasn't.

Irene McAleese: yeah, love to hear a bit

Tom Cooper: Yeah. So I think, yeah, there's, there's challenges of, you know, we have hardware and technology and so getting both of them to work together is, is a challenge every day and we're really lucky to have great engineers and operations teams. When we look at regulations, there's not a consistent regulation in Australia for e scooters.

So in Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, Western Australia, South Australia, Tasmania, and then over to New Zealand. Everywhere has a different regulation. So some markets you can be 16 to ride some of your 18, some are on footpaths, some are on roads. So it [00:09:00] makes it very nuanced, our approach and the way that we operate in all of these cities.

I think hopefully over time, as people realize that micro mobility is here to stay, it's not a fad. People will be using it every day. There's millions of trips every year that the regulations will evolve and there'll be more thought put towards how can we turn this into a reliable and consistent form of transportation for everyone.

So that includes things like bike lanes. You know, regulations around where they can be ridden. You know, helmet use is important. Age of riders. You know, it's, it's, it's challenging some markets where you have to be 18 and over to ride a scooter. But then what, basically you can be 16 to start driving. Um, so we want to see consistency around that.

And a lot of people, young people are saying we're not necessarily keen on getting that. A car [00:10:00] license, but we, we need to give them other forms of transportation so that they can link to PT,

Irene McAleese: Yeah. That's, that's actually mind boggling to think that you can get a car license before you can get a scooter license. Um.

Tom Cooper: or you don't need a license, but legally, you know, be able

Irene McAleese: to

legally be able to use one. Yeah. Um. Hmm. Hmm. So with all of that, with all of that different, all of those different regulations, that complexity, that must fall back, to you in, increased cost really in terms of how you, you need to sort of, It's to manage those bids.

When you're heading into a city, you need to understand that regulatory environment. You need to have people who are engaging with the city, presumably to understand that the unique niches and complexity or policies of that particular area. And I guess that's an overhead that you're saying could be much more streamlined if there was more standards in, in how the [00:11:00] regulations worked across the

states.

Tom Cooper: the confusion comes, Irene, when someone is a regular rider in Brisbane, and then, and there you can ride on the footpath and the, The road at different speed limits, and then you go to Adelaide and you can only ride on the footpath. It's just that knowledge barrier where someone's like, Oh, well, you know, the safest place for me in this particular situation is on the footpath or the road, whatever it might be.

And that flexibility, I think, is really important for users so that they can find the safest possible way to get around these streets and enjoy getting from A to B.

Irene McAleese: Yeah, I have to say that that has really struck me coming to Australia. I've been in the UK for the last 20 years and across Europe. And most of the technology seems to be talking about detecting riders on footpaths as if that was a bad thing. Um, and then, um, coming here, it's, it's interesting. It's quite fine to ride on a footpath, so I can [00:12:00] understand that that complexity must be, yeah, it must be challenging.

And I guess messaging to your rider community about, from their perspective, what's safe and how they should be utilizing infrastructure in a city, uh,

Tom Cooper: Yeah, absolutely. And that kind of spurs another conversation around technology. So when we first started launching e scooters six years ago, they had pretty average IOT devices, so we could see where they were every couple of seconds, but none of the geofencing technology that's just standard now.

So the vehicles that you see on the street today are probably the most controlled vehicles of any form of transportation. We can have slow zones. No go zones where where they can park. We've got audio alerts. So we let users know that they're entering and into a certain zone. And recently, we've just launched camera technology, which detects where people are riding.

So if they're riding on the [00:13:00] footpath, the road or bike lane, and it can adjust the speed accordingly. So the technology that we now have helps with some of those regulations are in, but. The challenge is it's still a lot of technology to put on every device to control and users get confused. They say, hang on a second.

Why can't I ride on a footpath here? Or why can't I ride on the road here? So we're trying to solve those problems through technology, but there is still that human element and misunderstanding around regulations.

Irene McAleese: So you do have some, you do have the technology to detect if they're on a footpath or not, but then in some states you're saying that, that may not be an issue. Um, so yeah, that, I can see that that would make it complex for you in terms of how you set up alerts or, um, reactions to these different things.

And you would have to

almost

Tom Cooper: the, the alerts is not so much of a technical issue. You know, the alerts isn't so much of a challenge. It's the [00:14:00] purchasing hardware because of, you know, different hardware does different things and so, um, you know, if we don't need it in a certain market, then, you know, we don't put it on and if we need it, then we put it on.

Irene McAleese: Right. So you'd have

Tom Cooper: to supply chain.

Irene McAleese: Yeah, yeah. And whether you would get full integration of this technology, um, at the build process or are you retrofitting it, which is more expensive then? Yes. Yeah. Okay. And do you, does this, all of this technological expertise that you, you talked about, the geofencing, slow zones, um, knowing where to, no go zones, where to park, camera tech, is that something that Beam has capability to develop in house or is this something where you work with external suppliers to, to help?

Oh,

Tom Cooper: Most of our technology is built in house. We build our technology in house and we use an OEM for our supply of hardware, which we have done from the get go. The reason that we chose to do that is [00:15:00] that we think there's the opportunity to for them to innovate and grow their hardware offerings for us.

And I think the perfect example is that we gave them feedback. We were looking for a smaller, lighter e bike. So we've They designed one. It's a great device and we launched that in Wellington a couple of weeks ago and we're launching it in an Australian city next week. So we're going to see lots of hardware innovation that we as a company probably couldn't do on our own.

But the fact that, you know, our OEM has other clients, they can spend millions and millions of dollars on R& D and we get the benefits from that.

Irene McAleese: Yeah, but then that's great that you can help influence and shape what's required because you've got that great relationship with them. Um, are there any other technological advances that you see on the way? And I guess the second question is part of that is how much should an [00:16:00] e scooter company be expected to continue to deliver around these technological, um, innovations?

Because, I mean, as you said at the start that there is a lot else that can be done. In terms of infrastructure or other things that cities could be doing. So where do you, you know, what other tech do you see is needed potentially? And where do you draw the line as to how far you have to keep innovating in that space?

Tom Cooper: I think an interesting one is we often get asked about, um, You know, drink riding. So about 12 months ago, we sat down and we developed a rider cognitive test. Um, so I want to be clear. It's not a drink riding test. It's a cognitive test that tests reactionary speed. And so we introduced that. We turned that on at certain times of the week in certain cities and certain locations so that You know, if people are thinking of going for a ride, um, we just test and remind them that drink riding is illegal.

We have had requests, you know, can we get a breathalyzer built into [00:17:00] a scooter? Um, and my response to that is probably not. Um, you know, most people don't have a breathalyzer built into their car. Um, so I think that's kind of a good example of Yeah, how far we're prepared to go in terms of innovation, but we are not the police, um, so we don't police, um, that we, we strongly encourage people and remind people of the rules, but we are not the police, so we won't be putting breathalyzers on, on vehicles.

Irene McAleese: Right. Right. And just last question for me then, what, what is the importance for you for infrastructure then for, for the operation and expansion of your business in terms of what the city can contribute?

Tom Cooper: Well, I think what we've seen in a lot of markets is when protected bikeways are built, the increase in ridership. So many people I talk to on a day to day basis say, I would ride more, but I just don't feel safe. [00:18:00] And so there's painted parklets, oh, bike lanes, um, along a lot of suburban streets throughout Australia, but a white line can be veered over, um, and, you know, Phil, as a experienced cyclist would know this, um, and so what we see is protected bike lanes, um, are just the way that people feel comfortable, and once people start to feel comfortable, they will do it more, and that's sort of how we see our business grow.

We've moved from a predominantly leisure. To now we're seeing a really strong commuter base using our product, and we think that will continue to grow in the coming years.

Irene McAleese: Ah, that's great. We were going to ask you a little bit more about the, the demographics actually. Um, Phil, do you want me to jump in with that? Because I know you had a few other questions to come back to as well. I don't want to hog all of the questions, with Tom.

Phil Latz: Just getting into some money and logistics issues, Tom. [00:19:00] Two questions. Firstly, your relationships with local governments. Clearly that's the critical level of government that you mainly deal with on a day to day basis. And you have to sometimes pay them money.

Also, sometimes the bids are a lot of work, but it's only a 12 month or two year or whatever contract. Any comment on those two points?

Tom Cooper: Yes, so in some markets, we do pay to operate on the streets, and that's across, you know, Australia and New Zealand. In terms of bid length or permit length, we are seeing them increase. So the first permit I ever was involved with was for six months. So as you can imagine, it's pretty hard to set up a business.

Put in charging infrastructure, rental warehouse, cars, vans, staff for six months. Now we're starting to see three, four, five years permits, and that's a [00:20:00] much better length. And we hope over the coming years that five years will become the standard, um, sort of operating permit length of markets.

Phil Latz: And just the relationship with the councils and I guess through the councils to the public about are these scooters are lying on the ground, they're in the way, level of service agreements, et cetera. Any comments on any of that?

Tom Cooper: Look, we, we're always working really closely with the councils to deliver the best possible service. We can, um, there will be challenges from time to time, but I think what we've seen over the last 5 years is that it's improved. Um, and there's some of the challenges that when we launched no longer challenges, and we're moving now to with a lot of councils to designated parking bays in high pedestrian areas.

I think that's a big step forward for the industry. Where all of a sudden people that are riding know exactly where they're going to park. They can see it. It's it's mapped on the [00:21:00] ground for them. It's in the app. Um, so there's no confusion. I think that's kind of like this. The next step is kind of, uh, realizing that micro mobility is a valid form of transportation, um, and, you know, a car park can fit 12 micro mobility devices.

So, you know, maybe there's an opportunity to give up one car park for some. Micromobility car parking.

Phil Latz: And the much publicized things that were happening with Ofo and early Chinese companies of bikes and scooters ending up in the river and so on. What's your stats now? How, how many Beam vehicles end up in. the lake or the river or whatever. Do you track that data?

Tom Cooper: We do track that data, I don't have a I've got an example from Wellington So Wellington, I'm not sure if The listeners are aware, but you know, a lot of water around Wellington and this year we haven't had any vehicles in the water in Wellington and [00:22:00] that's through operations. Um, so we have, you know, certain times of the day, no parking zones near water because it's not the riders generally that toss a vehicle into the water.

It's someone walking past that thinks, hey, this could be funny and tosses it in with some mates and they will have a laugh. So. If we can remove that temptation, then we see, you know, significant decrease in it, but compared to, to OFO, um, back in sort of 2016, um, you know, nowhere near those numbers and we can't afford to as a business, our business relies on, you know, our valuable asset being utilized as much as possible.

Um

Phil Latz: One final question on finances, if you like. I've just come back from Taipei recently, went to the Taipei cycle show, rode the share new bikes over there quite a lot. And I've ridden in other places in Europe or what have you. Other jurisdictions can be lower cost than [00:23:00] Australia. And I think part of this might be, I believe you have to pay very high insurance premiums and have a much more rigorous insurance structure requirements than other places.

Is, is that true? Is that, and is that part of the reason you're of higher cost or are there other reasons?

Tom Cooper: well, in terms of insurance, I'm not sure I'm the exact, um, Requirements in some other countries, but in in Australia, um, we have three forms of insurance. So we have public liability insurance, we have rider insurance, and we have third party insurance. So we've got a really strong suite, um, and that's developed when we first launched, you just needed public liability then we introduced.

Um, rider insurance and the third party came in about 21, 22. So, um, and that's been standard now across the industry. Everyone has that in Australia, New Zealand in terms of costs. We're always working to to make it as affordable as possible. Um, [00:24:00] and some of our subscription products now are incredibly cheap for people to to ride.

So we are working on that. Like every business, um, there is cost of living pressures, um, that have been applied, you know, to our business, like everyone. Um, so we are doing our best to try and keep prices as low as possible.

Phil Latz: Actually, I'm going to come back to something you said before, which I think surprised both Irene and myself. Which was the commuter aspect and you said it started as a tourist activity and now it's a very strong commuter element. So just how much savings can a commuter make on a longer term subscription package with you as opposed to the casual tourist doing a one off ride.

Tom Cooper: Yes, I think like a commuter trip, um, depending on the subscription that they choose, um, you know, they can be riding for as little as 20 cents a minute. Um, you know, so if the average trip length is 10 to 12 minutes, you're looking at sort of [00:25:00] two, 2 dollars 40. Um, A trip, which is very, very affordable. Um, you know, almost in line with public transport in a lot of cities. Look, we still have a lot of leisure use, and that's an important part of our business as well. But I think it's exciting for us to see that people are leaving the car at home and taking micro mobility. And it works well because you can park it, and then you don't have to worry about it. And then you come out at the end of the day, and if you go into a different location, you don't have to worry about locking up your bike or your scooter.

You can just take one from the street and get to and from home.

Phil Latz: Just rolling on to looking to the future a little bit. What will it take, not, not just for Beam, but for the whole bike and scooter share market to say grow 10X? You know, how long do you think, I'm talking Australia now in particular, or Australia, New Zealand, your, your responsible area, you know, what's going to take to grow it 10X?

Yeah.

Tom Cooper: I think a [00:26:00] good example is the 2032 Olympics in Brisbane, so, um, you know, the government and council have been quite public in the fact that they want it to be a car free Olympics. So for that to occur, we need to move hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people around Brisbane over a three week period.

Public transport will do a lot of the heavy lifting. But micro mobility, walking, are going to fill up a huge amount of that as well. So, I think it's those type of events which opens the door for someone that has never ridden a bike or a scooter to try it because they don't have an alternative, you can't jump in an Uber.

Um, and then that will spur them to trial it and use it potentially in other ways in their normal lives. So I think it's those type of events can help us grow 10x. And then it comes down to infrastructure. I mean, you know, you just have to go out every morning along, you know, in [00:27:00] Australia and see the congestion on streets and you really wonder if we converted one lane of traffic to a bike lane in the mornings. And then same with the evenings, how many more people would jump out of cars? And a, a fun game, I sometimes play with our little one when we're walking around as we count. The number of, it's probably pretty boring for other people, but, um, how many, you know, single occupancy cars there are, and it's nine out of 10.

You know, it's very rare that you see more than one person in, in a car when we're just walking along the street. So. I think there's a huge incentives that, you know, the government could work on, um, to encourage more people to, to ride bikes. You know, we, in Sydney, Um, where we live, there was a lot of families using cargo bikes.

So I know there's Wombat, which is a great Australian brand that's just started up selling cargo bikes. And they're doing a huge amount of, um, sales [00:28:00] with families that, you know, are using them, you know, one, two kilometers in the morning to drop the kids off at school. And I think that's the kind of incentives we need to be pushing, um, as a community to get people out of cars.

Micromobility will benefit from that. Um, but I think it starts at a grassroots level, you know, getting kids used to going to school on a bike with mum and dad is so important.

Phil Latz: Good to hear you're training up the next generation of advocates at a young age as well. What about better integration with public transport? And one thing, you know, Sydney, you've got the Opal card, Melbourne, you've got the MyKey card. Have you had any discussions with the public transport operators about integrating your payments into their card?

So it's a single one, one swipe, one card does all.

Tom Cooper: Yeah, we've done some trials. So we did one with transport for New South Wales, um, a couple of years ago where we integrated our bikes into the Opal plus, um, app, uh, and then we've [00:29:00] I've been running some other mass trials across Australia and New Zealand. I think for that to be, look, one of the things that I love about public transport in, in New South Wales is that you can just use your phone.

You don't have to have a card. You can just use your phone. You tap on, tap off. It's great. I think in the future, hopefully micro mobility will go that way as well. So people can just tap on, tap off. You don't necessarily need to have an app for every device. You can just use your card. I think that's probably the.

The future of integration Phil, but also at train stations, bus stops, some designated parking really helps people because they know where to park. It means that the bikes and scooters aren't in the way of the pedestrians. I think we're starting to see that a lot of train and tram stops are reaching out to us and saying, hey, how, how's best to integrate your service into that the train stop.

Phil Latz: What about the fleet size? How many of the cities [00:30:00] that you are in do you feel restricted because you've got in your agreement with that city a fleet size which is actually smaller than you would like?

Tom Cooper: think most of them, to be honest. Um, and I think the challenge is there from a public perception perspective, but also from an operator perspective. I think there's been significant gains by all the operators to to make parking and all the things that affect pedestrians better, um, and improved on that, but also I think we're still learning.

So I think an interesting stat in China, it's one micro mobility device for every 20 people in some of our most densely populated cities. We have one to 400, one to 500. So I think that gives you an idea of how far we can go. I don't think we'll [00:31:00] ever be at the Chinese level in terms of that. But yeah, I think we could probably double the fleets in a lot of cities and we'd be, um, kind of where we need to be in Australia, New Zealand.

Irene McAleese: Speaking about public transport, um, you know, you've obviously heard about the announcement, the big announcement, pre election announcement for the, 50 cent, uh, fares across TransLink. Um, how's that going to impact you? I mean, I know it's, it's in Queensland only, obviously, but, um, how's that going to impact What, what are your thoughts on, on that and, and how, how that affects you as a, as a micromobility provider?

Tom Cooper: Yeah, it's a good one. We actually had this chat on Monday, um, internally. Um, Look, we're supportive of it. I think, we don't see it as competition. We see it as an enabler. We enable more people to catch public transport. More people that catch public transport will need to use micro mobility. That's how we like to look at it.

Um, so [00:32:00] if all of a sudden people are leaving their cars at home, Then maybe, you know, at lunchtime, they need to go across the city, they will use a scooter or a bike. So that's kind of the way that we look at it. Yeah, it's exciting for people in Queensland to get cheaper public transport and hopefully, you know, utilisation increases.

Irene McAleese: it might be part of that shift as you were talking about that mindset shift. Um, but, but I think some of the commentary I've heard is that obviously it's going to serve people well who are already in areas that have good public transport. So if you live near a train line, that's great. Um, or if you have a really good bus service where you live, that's great.

But. For, for others who maybe aren't so well connected, scooters could be filling some of those gaps currently, right?

Tom Cooper: Yes, we've been working on a trial with the Brisbane City Council, First and last mile trial for the last 12 months and we're starting to see some growth in that where there's some hubs in, you know, less [00:33:00] service public transport areas where scooters are available to bring people to and from those hubs and we're seeing sort of steady growth in that. It's not, you know, shooting the lights out, um, but it is actually growing slowly. So, um, those are the kinds of projects that we have to continue to work on with councils and governments. Um, and so, you know, we're, we appreciate the Brisbane City Council is really committed to, to growing that.

And so we're grateful to be in partnership with them.

Irene McAleese: So yeah, just coming back to that, you know, you mentioned earlier about so many commuters, which is really fascinating. Would you have any, um, do you have any more breakdown about the kind of riders that you have? What would be their split, say around gender, um, income, age, that kind of thing, or even the locations where they're tending to ride from.

Tom Cooper: Yeah. So in terms of gender, um, we see it, About 60 percent male 40 percent female. Um, [00:34:00] what the fastest growing cohort is actually a plus of 45 and over cohort, which is exciting to see a lot of people think that micro mobility is just for young. You know, 18 year old boys, but, um, yeah, the largest user bases that we're seeing at the older ones, um, which is great.

And I think a lot of people have potentially been hesitant to try, but once they've tried, they've realized how easy it is, how safe and secure you feel when riding a scooter or a bike. And so they're doing it a lot more. So, um, that's something that we're really excited about. In terms of income, we don't collect, um, that information.

Phil Latz: I must ask, I just went to Brisbane recently and I had a first ride or two. I rode a bunch of your scooters around. And, um, had to first go on your seated scooter.

Tom Cooper: Yes,

Phil Latz: How is that going in terms of rides per scooter per day compared to the [00:35:00] standing scooters?

Tom Cooper: so it's about comparable to the standing scooter, but what we are seeing is 30 percent longer trips on that one. So people are, particularly at commuter times, we're seeing it, you know, being very, very popular for commuters to jump on in the morning and the evenings and go potentially, you know, 2 to 3 Ks rather than sort of 1 to 2 kilometers.

Phil Latz: Any other questions from you, Irene?

Irene McAleese: no, I think that's, that's

Phil Latz: Well, I'll just ask a final question for you, Tom. A bit of a catch all, but is there anything we've missed that you would have liked to mention that we didn't really give you the opportunity?

Tom Cooper: I think we've covered off a lot of things. The industry is very exciting. Um, it's growing and I think we're pretty fortunate to be at the start of this journey. If you look at a lot of Australian cities, they haven't had a new form of transportation in the last hundred years. So there will be some teething pains with [00:36:00] micromobility, but I think we're moving past those operators are doing their best to bring technology to solve problems, but we need to continue to push for better infrastructure, whether it's protected bike lanes or parking that can alleviate some of the challenges so that micromobility can be a form factor that is just like a park bench.

People are used to it. It's there. And it's reliable. So, um, we're excited about the future in Australia and New Zealand. It's just getting started and hopefully lots of people, I encourage all your listeners to get out there and trial an eScooter or an eBike if they haven't previously.

Phil Latz: Well, Tom Cooper, thanks very much for being on the Micromobility Report podcast.

Tom Cooper: Thanks so much for having me, Phil and Irene. It was lovely to see you both.

Irene McAleese: Yeah, thank you.

Phil Latz: Well, Irene, I thought that was a fantastic conversation with Tom and I was really excited and encouraged by a few things. Firstly, the rate of growth to see that this [00:37:00] market is growing after all the naysayers talking about shared vehicles being dredged up from the bottom of rivers and so on.

It's clearly not the case that things are really going ahead in this area.

Irene McAleese: Yeah, absolutely. And, um, it was also really fascinating to hear the potential for more growth, particularly with the Olympics coming to Queensland for, for 2032. And that this could really be kind of a tipping point for, um, you know. Much larger saturation of the market. So, you know, really impressive, uh, to see their trajectory and also to hear of their ambition.

Phil Latz: Absolutely. Actually, when I was up in Queensland recently, the Olympics aren't really on the radar for the southern states, but they're already a big, big deal in Brisbane coming up in 2032. And so let's hope that we can, as a micromobility community, really get some leverage out of that event.

Irene McAleese: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. [00:38:00] Um, I, you know, I've, I've spoken with some people here that are involved with the planning of this, and maybe this is something we can go into, to later, but, um, there's, There's only so many people that will be able to drive to one of these venues, so public transport is going to be a big part of the issue, but as, as Tom said, there's so much scope for people to do those last mile journeys over, over these forms of micro mobility, and we're talking millions of people that will be coming for the event, so really could be very exciting.

Phil Latz: Absolutely. Well, now we're going to move on to a new session that we're going to have at the end of each of our podcasts, which we've decided to call what's up because what's up is short to the point and that's a common phrase in Australia. So this will be just a chance for Irene and myself to share something that we're doing or something that's on our radar.

So, Irene, what's up for you?

Irene McAleese: So, what's up for me? [00:39:00] Well, firstly, I was quite interested to hear this week that University of Queensland are launching a new micromobility cluster. So, um, I'm going to find out a little more about that, but I think it is about academia as well as industry coming together to look at a lot of, um, innovation and policy initiatives.

So that could be very interesting for the industry. I'm also keenly watching the UK election. Now this, um, this broadcast might come out by the time, um, the election has happened in the UK, but, um, there's a lot of talk about the Labour government, you know, potentially coming in. So that will be very interesting because it's been, um, you know, There's a pretty divisive campaign that's going on at the moment involving active travel, so it'll be very interesting to see how that pans out, um, who gets elected and what that means for the UK going forward. Um, and last but not least, um, I'm really excited to be speaking at the ITS [00:40:00] Australia Summit coming up on the 13th to the 15th of August, um, ITS, Intelligent Transport Systems. First went to an ITS conference back in Copenhagen, I think, was it? 2019, with hardly any cycling or hardly any micromobility happening in this space.

Everything was about connected cars and drones and other kinds of transport that didn't involve micromobility, but it really is starting to creep into the agenda and I'm really happy to be there with SeeSense to help firmly get our foot in the door and make sure that, um, you know, data and micromobility gets to be considered as cities start to plan more and more in this space.

Phil Latz: That's fantastic. Yes, I was lucky enough to go to the ITS summit in Melbourne last year. It really is the big end of town in the transportation world, but I'm happy to report that since your experience five or six years ago in [00:41:00] Copenhagen, in Melbourne, it was much more open to micromobility and have a pretty good hearing, which was good.

So my two what's ups would be number one old news now for most, but just to comment on the federal infrastructure funding announced in the budget in May, that's a hundred million dollars over four years, starting from the 1st of July, 2025, not as much as we'd like, not as soon as we'd like it. But it is unprecedented in our 123 years since federation.

This is the first time that the federal government has committed to ongoing infrastructure spending specifically targeted to cycling and walking. So it's a good precedent and it's something that we can hopefully build on.

Irene McAleese: absolutely,

Phil Latz: And my second what's up. Would be that [00:42:00] I'm thrilled to say at the time of recording this that in less than two weeks time I'll be heading to the UK and Europe Firstly to London and I now have a confirmed meeting two meetings In fact at the transport for London control room, which is not normally open to the public But they've actually got two control rooms.

They told me so I'm having two separate visits an hour apart I'll be visiting bike shops in London and Paris and riding lots of shared bikes and scooters and whatever else is going and having a good look at the transport systems of those two cities. And then on to Eurobike, onto Frankfurt, Germany for the Eurobike show, which I have attended many times before, but this will be the biggest ever.

And the European industry, unlike Australia, which is a little flat at the moment is very buoyant. And so I'm expecting to see a lot of buzz, a lot of [00:43:00] people. and a lot of new tech. So they are, they are my two what's ups. Would you have anything else you'd like to add, Irene?

Irene McAleese: No, I think, um, that's really hard to follow. I think the, the eurobike and, and the Paris and London trips are gonna be very exciting. And I love the fact that, um, as I do, whenever you're on holiday, you manage to, um, find a way to, to get in and explore those cities. But yeah, getting a, getting a visit to the traffic control rooms, A TFL is, is a, is quite a, quite a coup.

So I'm really interested to hear, uh, your experience of that when you come back.

Phil Latz: No, I'm really looking forward to it. So just to wrap up, we'll be doing one of these podcasts every month. We've already got some great guests lined up for the next few months. So please subscribe, look out for the next podcast, and we look forward to speaking to you then.

Irene McAleese: Thank you, goodbye. [00:44:00]