Episode 3: Melinda Hanson

Melinda Hanson

Season 1 Episode 3

[00:00:00]

Phil Latz: Welcome to the Micromobility Report Podcast, where we'll discuss how we can all go further with less. I'm your co host, Phil Latz, publisher of the Micromobility Report.

Irene McAleese: And I'm Irene McAleese, co founder of See.Sense,

Phil Latz: Today we'll be talking with Melinda Hanson, one of the key influencers for micromobility in New York City. She's the founder of Brightside Consulting

and the co founder of the Equitable Commute Project.

Irene McAleese: So, Melinda, thank you so much for coming on the micro mobility report podcast. Um, so I first met you a few years ago, but our listeners may or may not be aware of your amazing career that you've had. I wondered if you could just step us through, [00:01:00] tell us a little bit about yourself and, and your journey to get to what you're working on today.

Melinda Hanson: Sure. Yeah, actually we met over. Um, whiskey at Velo City, right? In Rio, Brazil.

Irene McAleese: keep it real. Yes.

Phil Latz: Too much information,

Irene is saying.

Melinda Hanson: Um, yeah, so I've been working at the intersection of climate and transportation pretty much my whole career, um, starting at a foundation called the Climate Works Foundation, which I was a founding staff member back in 2007. Um, and from there really discovered A love for urban transportation issues, um, among all of the many climate issues that one could be focused on.

Um, after philanthropy, I went into graduate school to study urban planning. Um, and from there went on to be an urban planner and urban designer and work on a number of large scale infrastructure projects, um, covering public transportation and bicycle and, [00:02:00] and pedestrian projects in Asia. Uh, and Africa, um, and a little bit in the U S.

Um, from there, I made the jump to the private sector where I became the head of sustainability at Bird, the electric scooter company that started it all. Um, and is, is still hanging on. Um, and, uh, after leaving Bird around the pandemic, I started my own consulting firm, uh, first called Electric Avenue, uh, which was with some partners and now have since spun off to my very own consulting firm called Brightside.

Um, so Brightside provides public affairs, strategy, and research support to accelerate the work of, uh, climate tech companies as well as nonprofits. I also do a fair amount of advising for government organizations, mostly in the micro mobility space, but also increasingly in other climate arenas like circularity, battery management, things like that.

Irene McAleese: so what prompted you to leave the safe salary of [00:03:00] working for larger organizations to go and set up your own business in what is really, I suppose, quite a tough market? Yeah.

Melinda Hanson: Yeah, well, um, you know, it was actually not a choice at first. We, I was part of the layoffs at the peak COVID time. Um, you know, the e scooter industry had a lot of VC funding. And, um, so in March of 2020, I was part of some layoffs. And, um, you know, there weren't a lot of options out there, but I knew that a lot of the skills that I had and had contributed to BIRD as well as, you know, cities and infrastructure projects in the past could be helpful for a number of groups that are percolating up.

In the growing sustainable mobility space. So yeah, just went for it and it turned out to be a real blessing because, um, it turns out it's a very good fit for me and I love the opportunity to partner with. You know, fast growth startups, which can be [00:04:00] chaotic, but have so much energy and, you know, so much enthusiasm and optimism for solving climate and other major problems, um, as well as working with bleeding hearts at, um, at nonprofits and of course, uh, advising government.

So being a consultant and having my own practice in particular allows me to really work on whatever areas of interest, um, I have.

Irene McAleese: Yeah, that's so that's great. There's so much variety in what you're doing now and I guess that must be very stimulating. Um, what about, so how would you split your time through the charitable side of what you do and then also sort of the government advisory or the consultancy work? What would that split kind of look like for you or does that change all the time?

It changes

Melinda Hanson: changes a lot. It really depends on, um, on the month. Uh, right now, a lot of my, um, work with non profit organizations is focused on the Equitable Commute Project, which is a coalition organization that I founded. or co founded in 2020, [00:05:00] um, trying to build more of a movement to advocate for sensible e bike, e scooter, um, other micromobility devices or their policy.

Um, there wasn't really like a, uh, organization that was strictly focused on those issues at the time. And in New York, there were a lot of, uh, policy proposals and, um, being presented that misguided is a nice way of putting it. So we wanted to, to build a coalition to, um, you know, to bring, um, some rigor and some vision and, um, solutions to the table in order to really capture the greatest benefits that micromobility can provide.

Irene McAleese: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's great. Well, we'll, uh, I want to hear a little bit more about that, that those exciting projects in a moment. Um,

Phil Latz: Yeah, we'll definitely come back to that Equitable Commute project, but, uh, I just want to hop in the helicopter and [00:06:00] go to a bigger picture for a moment, uh, from all your wide experience across multiple organizations, if you had to make a list of the top three things that would make a difference in growing micromobility in a city, what would they be?

Melinda Hanson: Oh, that's a hard one. Um, the first is I would completely change the way that infrastructure is, uh, approved and construction that, and constructed in cities, um, you know, the majority of government activities that contribute to improving safety of its citizens. aren't required to go through, um, such a political process and have fights and approvals over, you know, every 100 feet of, of bike lane infrastructure.

Just as, for example, you know, if there's a, um, a lead pipe that needs to be fixed or a, um, uh, you know, electric hazard that needs to [00:07:00] be improved. We don't ask. every neighbor across an entire community, whether or not that should be done. It is the government's role to implement safety infrastructure. So first is I think that there should be consultation with the community, but not the ability to veto, um, especially bicycle infrastructure projects that we currently have.

Um, it's just very inefficient and results in a lot of fragmented, uh, infrastructure projects and a lot of time spent, um, engaging folks who, you know, quite frankly, just aren't, aren't experts, aren't safety experts in the space. So that would be the number one thing that I would change. Um, the number two thing, uh, you know, right now there's a really big issue with, um, battery fires in New York city.

There were more than a hundred, there were more than 200. Structural fires from micro mobility batteries last year, and that's from a range of different products. And [00:08:00] I think every city across the globe needs to move quickly to start regulating and requiring standardization for any batteries that are coming into the or being sold.

Um, uh, you know, New York has has adopted. UL 2849 standards, which just mean that the battery, the product, the motor, uh, the whole system has been tested, um, for fire safety and significantly increase, increases safety. Um, the fact that that hasn't been addressed is creating a whole range of additional problems and pushback and perception that this is just inherently a dangerous mode, not just on the streets, but also in apartments.

So getting, being proactive in cities across the globe, even where it's not currently a problem, um, to make sure that we have standardization and high quality vehicles is really important. Um, the third is, uh, I, I guess I [00:09:00] was really inspired. I did a study tour. In Copenhagen on bicycle infrastructure when I was working more on directly urban planning projects and one of the things that stuck out to me the most there was how much.

Biking is, um, part of culture from a very young age. We had this delightful experience where we got to watch these preschoolers play cycle games. And, you know, when the teachers opened the door, the whole crew of them run out. They're so excited. They have their little push cycles that they're going around and collecting rings off the floor and playing with one another.

And just seeing how much, you know, Um, that becomes a part of their independence and, um, their growth and their interaction and just like their joy in their day was so inspiring. And I would love to see so much more of that embracing of cycling, um, and practical cycling skills as well, right? Like they're games, but they were actually learning some functional skills, [00:10:00] um, passing that or really integrating that into, into like education really throughout people's lives.

Phil Latz: Well, that's an excellent, well considered, off the bat answer with no forewarning and three great ideas. I just want to come back to clarify Batteries 200 fires last year. Now, is that including power drills and other electrically powered devices, or is that just your micromobility e bikes, e scooters, and so on?

Melinda Hanson: It's just micro mobility devices, um, and, uh, and so it's e bikes, e scooters, e mopeds, um, hoverboards, kind of the range of things that are on wheels,

Phil Latz: and

that's just New York City you're

Melinda Hanson: just New York City. Yeah, there were, I believe it was 17 deaths even from it in New York City. I mean, we're a large city. It's a city of eight and a half million.

But it's a really acute problem here. And a lot of it is focused in lower income communities. Um, the [00:11:00] majority of fires. are in the homes of people who rely on micro mobility to make a living. So working cyclists. Um, and so, you know, the, the problem is you start with these low quality, non standardized batteries and systems.

Then you get a little damage in there. Then you have some electric problem in your old building. And it's, um, just a cause for, um, it's tragic. And there's been a lot of, um, a lot of unnecessary. deaths and injuries and disruptions to people's lives.

Phil Latz: I think most people wouldn't realize the scale of just how many delivery riders there are in New York City. I've seen some numbers, but what's your number that you use as the total number of delivery riders, be they full time, part time, or whatever?

Melinda Hanson: The most common number you see is 65, 000. Um, although I've seen estimates from people who work in the business of it being as high as 100, 000. [00:12:00] Um, now that I've done some work with delivery workers as part of the Equitable Commute Project, Um, I think it's a really hard number to put your finger on because it's a constantly moving figure.

Um, some people are full time delivery workers and this is what they plan to do for their foreseeable future. Others do it to supplement other kinds of seasonal jobs. Um, others do it part time. There's just like such a range of folks who are involved in the space. So at any one time, I imagine that number could be quite different, but, um, it's definitely somewhere above 65, 000.

Phil Latz: Which is a lot. It's

a football stadium full of delivery riders. Um, Now you're in New York City, which is a leader in many ways in the U. S. when it comes to micromobility. What are some of the big issues playing out in New York City right now?

Melinda Hanson: Um, so in addition to the fires, um, you know, so, so in response to the fires, the city passed a law requiring all [00:13:00] e bikes sold in the city to be UL 2849, um, which was a great step and a necessary one, but it had the unforeseen consequences. consequence of pushing a lot of delivery workers to gas powered mopeds because mopeds are cheaper and they don't have to worry about where to charge them and they don't have to worry about battery fires.

So now suddenly we have this massive proliferation of mopeds. that are required to be licensed. Like you have to have a license plate on them. They have to be registered with the state DMV and the riders of them, depending on what class of vehicle have to have at least a driver's license, if not a special motorcycle license.

Um, and the majority, at least anecdotally, when you look around of the mopeds that are on the streets these days, They are, do not have license plates, um, and many of the folks who are riding them do not appear to have the correct driver's license. [00:14:00] Um, so this is creating a lot of chaos on our streets right now.

Folks who used to ride bikes are now riding the mopeds as if they were riding bikes. They're riding on sidewalks, they're riding the wrong way on traffic, um, and it's really creating, uh, a lot more hazards on our streetscape. Like, this is a major pedestrian city, and, um, pedestrians, I think, will be affected.

rightly so feel more endangered by the mopeds. So that's a really huge issue that's playing out and trying to figure out what the right response is. Something that, you know, um, is considerate of not wanting to, to push the police force on a lot of folks who are riding the mopeds who tend to be immigrants, black and brown community members, um, but also needing to get some order to the space.

So the city is really struggling with how to, uh, enforce things and, um, do it equitably.

Phil Latz: So just, uh, to paint a clearer picture, particularly for us, um, Aussies down under, [00:15:00] mopeds is not a word we use a heck of a lot here. It would it be something as large as a Vespa step through scooter and as fast as that that we're talking or something smaller and does it have pedals or just foot pegs?

Melinda Hanson: Yeah. The Vespa example is exactly the one I always point to. It's something that looks like a Vespa, uh, and no pedals, just the foot base.

Phil Latz: So capable of going quite a high speed

Melinda Hanson: Yeah. 35 to 55, I think in most cases,

Phil Latz: in miles per hour you're talking

Melinda Hanson: miles per hour.

Phil Latz: so so like 60 to 80 kilometers an hour. So way too big, fast and powerful to be on a footpath.

Melinda Hanson: Yeah, yeah. Or on bike lanes. Um, yeah. And it's, you know, even as someone who's a huge advocate and is constantly defending, you know, people's behavior in this space, it's very hard to defend. I have a toddler who I push around in a stroller and I have folks on mopeds trying to compete with me to get on top of the, or to get, um, you know, through the curb cut [00:16:00] onto the sidewalk.

So there's just a lot of issue with, uh, antisocial riding behavior. Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Latz: And what about the congestion charge? That has been in the headlines. What's your take on that? And where do, where do you think it will land? Do you think it's dead and buried or do you think it will come back? And maybe perhaps you can give a bit of context for people that don't follow New York as closely as I do and might not have heard of what, what the heck am I talking about?

Melinda Hanson: Yeah, yeah, it is. It is truly heartbreaking. I have to say. So, um, congestion charging is the idea of adding tolls to, um, specific zones. And in New York City, it was planned in Manhattan below 60th Street. So that's, um, almost half of Manhattan and the busiest area of Manhattan. Um, and the idea was that there would be, uh, tolls.

So if you entered the central business district. It entered the congestion charging zone. Um, you would pay a toll just like you would [00:17:00] to cross a bridge or like it is in so many places. The toll varied based on the vehicle type and also the time of day. Um, going as high as 15. to enter the zone, um, for a private vehicle and upwards of 20 for trucks.

Um, of course, congestion charging has been implemented in London, in Singapore and in Stockholm, several other cities across the world. And it's always met with a lot of resistance when it comes into place, but then pretty much loved by a majority of people once it's actually there. The idea is to just get people to pay their fair share, um, to internalize a lot of the externalities associated with driving.

Um, so the city had kicked it around as, as a policy option for decades, really starting with the Bloomberg administration, um, and it didn't go anywhere. It finally, uh, there was finally a law that was passed to call for congestion charging. during 2019 when there was a major [00:18:00] failure across our subway system.

Um, we've had a hard time having, raising enough money or putting enough government funds towards the subway system in New York City to keep pace with the various upgrades that need to happen. Um, haven't been able to have money to extend service, haven't had money to add. Elevators into stations. And so for decades, um, the only funding available has really just been for like absolutely mission critical repairs.

So the idea was that passing congestion charging created a reliable revenue source for the MTA to fund repair, to fund repairs and upgrades. Um, and modernization really of a more than hundred year old system. Um, that was passed in 2019. A ton of money, a ton of work was put into, uh, working toward the implementation.

There were multiple lawsuits against people who opposed it. There were a thousand page, uh, page studies, uh, that were done on the environmental impact to make sure [00:19:00] that traffic diverted wasn't somehow creating more emissions. Um, and finally, we got to the place where we had a date of implementation, which was June 30th, um, and about three weeks before the implementation date, um, to everybody's surprise, our governor, Governor Kathy Hochul, came out and said she was putting an indefinite pause on congestion charging, um, which, by the way, is law, so it's, it's really not clear that she's even allowed to do such things, um, but, um, But, uh, you know, they're actually just just today there was news coming out that the city's comptroller is planning a series of lawsuits to push back and require implementation of congestion charging.

So, um, I think that it's. It's, um, it's really unfortunate that a democratic process was pretty arbitrarily squashed, um, due to political reasons, according to many people, um, but that you go through all of that. You have all of the electeds, [00:20:00] all of the constituents on board, and then the governor, um, you know, says that she had some conversations in a diner.

and decided to just not implement this necessary system. Doesn't really feel like much of a democracy when you look at that. But hopefully these lawsuits will actually show that she either doesn't have the authority to just decide to not implement a law that is a law, or that by not doing this, she's violating Um, the Americans with Disabilities Act or other climate laws that have, have been adopted.

So, um, the first lawsuit I think was just filed this week even, and there's several others that are planned. So I, I remain hopeful, um, and very frustrated that this is where we are right now.

Irene McAleese: A package of eight [00:21:00] bills that were passed I read, um, as well this week looking at, the retailers being banned from selling uncertified batteries or there were a whole range of different things in that bill.

So reporting crashes and things like that. What is that? Is that going to be helpful? Do you think those measures?

Melinda Hanson: Yeah, so those were all at the state level. Um, so the one I mentioned before requiring UL 2849 certification for e bikes sold in New York, that was a city level one. Um, so the state essentially replicated that. Um, and, uh, I think added a European standard that is, is allowed as well. Um, there were, there are a series of bills.

So that was one basically requiring at the state level that there's fire safety certification. Um, there was also a bill that was focused on requiring, Registration and licensing at the point of sale for all mopeds. And so trying to get to that issue that I mentioned before about this proliferation of [00:22:00] uncertified, um, and unregistered vehicles.

Um, and then there were, yeah, there were a few others in there. I know there was one calling on the, um, the state to administer a battery trade and program to try and get unsafe batteries off the streets. Um, Um, and then a few others related to fire safety and other education

campaigns.

Irene McAleese: Brilliant. Well, actually, um, just on that, tell us a little bit more about that very exciting project that you've been doing with the Equitable Commute Project, because I did, uh, when I was in New York last, I did meet you and heard a bit about it, and I just thought it was absolutely brilliant, and that was really one of the main reasons I wanted to get you on to this, because I think more people need to know about it.

It's just amazing. So tell us a bit more about that.

Melinda Hanson: Yeah. So, um, as I mentioned, the, the ECP was formed in 2020, um, with the goal of trying to figure out how to support frontline workers to access affordable, high [00:23:00] quality e bikes, um, and advocate for sensible policy. We, uh, when there was a, uh, when the fire started, there was a ban proposed basically that would, uh, not allow e bikes to be stored in city owned buildings, including city affordable housing buildings.

Um, and that just struck us as a little bit too draconian and, um, not necessary given what we knew about what was, what was happening. So we were, we were pushing back against that ban and asking for there to be a more precise intervention, including, you know, outdoor charging, requiring standardization and such.

Um, and while we were yapping about that, um, we were approached by some delivery apps that said, or, you know, We were saying that that needed to happen and that in order for, um, sorry, that we should not ban the bikes. Instead, we should be pushing for incentive programs that, [00:24:00] um, provide discounted pricing for higher quality bikes so that lower income New Yorkers who tend to be the ones acquiring these more dangerous vehicles can actually afford to get, um, a fire safe bike.

Um, and so we were advocating for that and were approached by some delivery apps who said, why don't you guys administer a program like that? Um, and so we've been doing that for about a year now, um, uh, where delivery workers can apply for the program. If they're approved, uh, they can exchange their uncertified bike for discounted pricing on a UL 2849 certified bike.

Um, so we to date have done, um, about a hundred and 60 bikes, um, and, you know, plan to keep it going at least for a little bit longer. It was never our intention to run a program at scale for this, like you would need, an awful lot of money to replace those tens of thousands of potentially hazardous e [00:25:00] bikes, and some, some big infrastructure, but essentially we just wanted to work out the contours and show how it could actually work and hopefully, um, you know, push for there to be collective action between the government and the private sector and the non profit sector to administer a large scale program like this.

I

Phil Latz: So shouldn't Uber and DoorDash be legally required to provide their delivery riders with safe certified bikes? And shouldn't they be forced to employ riders and give them full legal equipment from lights to helmets to everything else they need, training, rather than being allowed to call them independent contractors and leave them out to dry.

Melinda Hanson: I mean, that gets into the labor issues of which there are many, um, that you just, just listed here. Um, yeah, I mean, we're trying to be productive and focus on the micromobility space and how do we advance solutions for [00:26:00] micromobility. So we're not, um, Um, playing too much in the labor requirement space. There are bills that have been proposed that would do just that, that would require these companies to provide, um, the vehicles, uh, for their workers.

Um, I think part of the, the challenge is that it is such a transient workforce, so, uh, in New York at least, And, you know, for, uh, for, for many there's, or for some at least, it's a lot of new immigrants, um, who, you know, may or may not have the various registrations and forms and residency that they need in order to have more formal employment.

Um, so for some it is an entry point to actually making money where it would be harder for them to find jobs otherwise. But, you know, I think it's, it's a really complicated topic. I think that the apps certainly do have, um, should be [00:27:00] expected to provide some amount of funding toward the vehicles, which is what they're doing right now with this program, um, by helping us to subsidize the purchase of new vehicles.

And I think our recommendation as the ECP would be that. There is a fee on top of deliveries that goes to a fund, um, that would allow, uh, by, uh, workers to actually access their own bikes. Um, because another part of this issue is that a lot of workers who have their bikes use it for purposes beyond just delivery work.

They use it actually to get around the city. Um, so, complicated topic. They certainly have some role to play in this and definitely a larger one than they're currently playing.

Irene McAleese: Well, I've certainly enjoyed following, you know, your socials and seeing the happy faces of, of the delivery riders that are getting their bikes. And it certainly seems to be a program that's created a lot of buzz. And hopefully, um, you know, as you say, it's going to seed that idea and, um, help things grow and [00:28:00] transform. Hey, listen, we, we also, um, checked out your, there was a guest spot that you did on the, the, the Brian Lira. How do I

Melinda Hanson: Brian Lara Yep.

Irene McAleese: Let Lara Show, um, which is, uh, NYC Public Radio. Um, it's an interesting discussion, and I, and I picked up that there was, you know, some of the, the talkback calls that were coming in that you fielded very well, I thought.

Um, but there was sort of a tone of, you know, some aggravation that people were talking about, this sort of perception of the, the speeding of the delivery riders, um, chaos generally in the streets. So, um, how do you think, you know, um, what's the best way to resolve that, that tension or the issues?

Um, you know, obviously it's a good thing to have more bikes and micro mobility on streets, but I guess it's balancing that argument or the perception that there is a chaos that's being created. What, what are your thoughts on, on that? And for this audience, would you like to [00:29:00] just expand on that a little?

Melinda Hanson: Yeah, so, I think one of the biggest issues is that the proliferation of, um, all types of vehicles on New York City streets, especially since the pandemic, um, has been really, really fast. Um, and that includes. Ebikes It includes mopeds. It includes a range of micro mobility devices, but it also includes, um, delivery trucks.

Deliveries have skyrocketed since the pandemic in New York city. So, you know, it's like common to see an Amazon truck on like every other block, um, around the city. There's also been an increase in car ridership as people, you know, were scared of the subway during the pandemic and switched to cars and have continued to ride, to take cars.

Um, so at the same time this influx of micromobility has happened, there's also been an influx of other vehicles. And [00:30:00] so the traffic congestion is bad in many places, um, and the competition for road space is really high. So the, but I think because the, um, the mopeds and the e bikes are the new guy in town and that a lot of people weren't so used to seeing them, they've kind of gotten used to all of the annoyances and chaos that cars bring.

Um, but this is something new. So I think that plays a really big role in it. I think people are sort of unfairly demonizing the micromobility. Um, in a lot of ways as like the root of the problem, you know, there's traffic congestion and people insist it's because there's a bike lane, which is, you know, just proven to be ridiculous time and time again.

Um, but yeah, it's, uh, I think it's, it's a lot of it has to do with infrastructure and not proper infrastructure. Now that's not to fully excuse the way that people are riding, as I mentioned before, the mopeds. Um, and some of the e bike riders are riding [00:31:00] very aggressively. Uh, I think in most cases that's a response to just feeling this like stress and pressure on streets and, you know, feeling like you're trying to, to make decisions that feel like the most rational decision for you, which sometimes involves getting up on a sidewalk.

Um, so the first thing I, I think would be most helpful is just getting the infrastructure right. Um, doing things to encourage people to take more efficient modes, since, of course, you can fit about 10 car or 10 bikes in the space of one car. Um, uh, and so, you know, doing many of the things that congestion charging was intended to do, um, and unfortunately is currently paused at.

But infrastructure is huge. Um, training is huge. Um, I think increasingly tech is going to play a role in managing transportation of all kinds, you know, things like speed limiters. Um, geofencing on certain zones. I think we'll see a lot more of that in the coming decades. And, um, hopefully that'll quell a lot of this, this chaos that people are feeling.[00:32:00]

Irene McAleese: Yep. Perfect.

Phil Latz: I'm mindful of time and we've just got two more questions

Melinda Hanson: Sure.

Phil Latz: One from me is just what do you see happening in micromobility in the future? How optimistic are you and what do you think the main changes to our cities, globally, if you like, would be over the coming years?

Melinda Hanson: I'm very optimistic about the future of of micro mobility. So as I've worked in the climate and transportation space, as I mentioned, my whole career, which is about 17 years now, I've never seen a more promising solution. You know, micro mobility gives people the autonomy of the car with an unbelievable amount of affordability and efficiency and reliability.

Um, and the majority of people when they're looking to make a transportation trip are looking at those things. They want something that's reliable, that's fast, and that's not too expensive. So I think the more that we see cities following in the footsteps of like what Paris has done, for example, over the past 5 to 10 [00:33:00] years, massively investing in bicycle infrastructure at the same time, restricting cars in particularly dense zones, um, and putting just more incentives.

for people to choose more efficient modes. Um, I, I think we'll see a lot more uptake. Um, the other thing that excites me a lot about micro mobility is all of the different vehicle types, you know, right now we're, we're still pretty focused on the two wheeled, um, open exposure like bikes or bike adjacent modes, but of course there's new models coming out like the Twizy, um, which is, you know, a, a small little, um, I think it does have four wheels but it's It's, it's barely larger than the profile of a bicycle, but is an enclosed vehicle.

Um, and I think, uh, you know, in cities that's such a much more sensible bike or, or vehicle to use in a city. So hopefully we'll see an increase in vehicle types like that. Um, the other thing I think is really exciting is you're seeing a lot more transition [00:34:00] for freight and commercial vehicles over to micromobility, uh, in New York City.

That's mostly. cargo bikes, trikes, and equads, and the city's really enthusiastic about it, and you do not have the same political pushback for those vehicles and for commercial uses as you do for private uses. So those things keep me very optimistic.

Irene McAleese: That is a, that is a great summary and certainly very inspiring. I love all of those points. Um, Melinda, is there anything else that, you know, we've, we've asked you lots of questions. Some, some of them without any notice at all, and you've been great at answering, but I think, is there anything that you want to come back and, you know, share back with our audience that we've maybe not covered today?

Melinda Hanson: I just think that, um, this is the most promising Equitable climate solution that I have seen. Um, micromobility, you know, provides a way for people to get around cities. It increases joy in their lives. It's [00:35:00] affordable for people who don't have money to purchase and manage a car. Um, and it could be something that not only reduces carbon emissions, but also makes for better and more joyful cities.

So, um, I just think that, that I would love to see people taking it more seriously. Um, you know, traveling to places like, like Paris. Um, or London where cycling has massively increased. If you, if you haven't seen that yet, I think once you see it with your own eyes and see how these like modern developed societies are incorporating micromobility more deeply into their transportation infrastructure, it is just like life and mind changing.

Um, and that is a vision that could improve so many of the things that are wrong with our society today. And, um, we all have to work toward it. And, um, and I think, um, we'll all be better for it.

Irene McAleese: Yeah.

Phil Latz: Well, Melinda Hanson, you've been a stunningly articulate guest and thanks for coming on the [00:36:00] Micromobility Report podcast.

Melinda Hanson: Thank you so much for having me. Great to see you guys.

Phil Latz: Well, Irene, what an amazing articulate advocate Melinda is, that was super impressive, wasn't it?

Irene McAleese: Yeah, I mean, I, I knew she would be great. I've, I've known Melinda for a number of years and I've just been so impressed, at her breadth of knowledge because, you know, she's, she's worked in the advocacy background, policy, you know, worked in the micromobility industry, BIRD, know, she's really, really broad range of, perspectives and, So articulate.

I think she's, she's amazing and I'm, I'm really glad she was able to come on the podcast with us. Yeah.

Phil Latz: Yeah, it's really encouraging and gives us hope when there's people like that, if you like in our corner, if you want to be parochial, but people who are advocating for, for good things. So now we'll roll onto a little section we're going to have to wrap up every podcast that we started last month and it's called what's up.

And it's [00:37:00] just a chance for you and I to say. What we're doing, what's coming up, what's on our mind. So Irene, what's up?

Irene McAleese: What's up? Well, I think since the last podcast, um, both of us have done a bit of travel for me. It was off to VeloCity. Um, I wasn't going to go actually this year because of my move to Australia. I just thought I wasn't going to be able to squeeze it in, but then the pull became too strong. Um, and as I started seeing all of the posts about VeloCity this year, and especially as it was held in Ghent.

Such a beautiful city. I thought have go. So, and, and, um, I'm so glad I did. Um, it was just really good on a personal level just to connect with lots of people. I've been going to VeloCity for a number of years now. So there's a, there is community of people there. And I guess the thing is that it's so energizing to be amongst that.

So the networking is really good. And coming away with this sort of, yeah, [00:38:00] perspective that, yeah, you're not the only one in this and there's lots of other people advocating, as you said, for, good things. And so I think VeloCity is fantastic for that. But aside from that, the city of Ghent itself was just so impressive, you know, to see what they've done with the circulation plan there, how they've, they've taken the traffic out of, out of the city, essentially created, um, you know, much more space for people just to walk and cycle around the city.

It's noticeably improved Quieter, you know, and, um, and the interesting thing is that they haven't needed to invest, you know, so much in dedicated cycle lanes because you can pretty much cycle anywhere. So it's really interesting, um, to see that, um, in practice. And I think a model that a lot of cities could, could move towards.

Um, yeah, and then just also, you know, there's some great speakers as well at VeloCity, you know, you see how Janette, Janette Siddiquan opening, and there were, I think interesting [00:39:00] themes. A lot of it was about handling that sort of, Bike Lash, the commute, how to position, how to manage that pushback, as, you know, I think as Janette Sadik-Khan said, you know, when you change the status quo, it's going to, when you push the status quo, it's going to push back at you.

So how do you manage that, the storytelling and using data and all of these things to be able to generate change in the city. So. Um, yeah, super conference. I'm really happy that I went. And then now next steps for me is I'm going to be heading the ITS Australia summit in August. I'm sure it's going to be a completely different vibe.

Um, but, um, I'm keen to make sure that cycling is in the mix in the discussions for ITS intelligent transport. Um, because there's not enough cycling on the agenda. typically in those type of conferences. So sometimes it's good to come out of your echo chamber, [00:40:00] um, and go into, into a space where, where it's, it's not, uh, you know, VeloCity is great cause we're all singing the same hymn sheet.

ITS world, um, not so much. So it is sometimes good to step out of that and make sure that our voice is heard elsewhere. Yeah.

Phil Latz: Absolutely, you're in the big end of town at ITS. I went last year down in Melbourne, but what you say about quietness too in Ghent you notice that if you go to Amsterdam, it's just so quiet. The streets are so quiet that's just normal.

Irene McAleese: I, I, one thing I, funny thing I heard was someone mentioned that they could hear the birds chirping. As they were, as they were riding along and they were saying maybe one of the measures of a successful city should be, you know, what sound is the, what's the bird o meter, chirp o meter,

Phil Latz: That's right.

Irene McAleese: the city.

Um, then I reflected, I'm not sure how that will work in Australia because we've got such noisy [00:41:00] birds here.

Phil Latz: ha ha ha ha

Irene McAleese: The cockatoos would be screeching and sending it off on a different, on the levels crazy. But, um, yeah. Bird O Meter, Chep O Meter, was a good from Ghent.

Phil Latz: So, my what's up would be also like you said, I've been lucky enough to be traveling, had three and a half weeks and spent a bit of time in four cities, London, Paris, Frankfurt and Singapore. So, yeah. Earlier this year I went to Taipei for the Taipei Cycle Show and I did a story in Micromobility Report called Active Transportation Lessons from Taipei for Australia.

So I went to, and that was very well received, got some good comments and good readership. So I went to London with the intention of taking photos and studying it to, to, to Do a similar story, which I'll be doing in a future edition, active transport lessons for Australia from London. [00:42:00] And I was lucky enough to go to the control room of transport for London and see both their motor vehicle control space and their London underground control center, which was a great privilege and very interesting.

Wasn't allowed to take photos. Unfortunately, it's a high security type operation as you would expect, but it I did a lot of bike riding around London, mainly on Lime bikes, a little bit on the Santander Dock bike share bikes, but really Lime seems to have the market share. But my goodness, a lot of those bikes were grubby and damaged.

They really get a battering and they really don't spend enough on maintenance. One time I had to try about four different bikes before I got one that was suitably rideable. But I did a lot of hours of riding. We're staying in Canary Wharf and the first commute into the, or commute, you know, exploratory ride of my daily rides, stayed there a week.

Into the centre of London I was expecting a lot of traffic and so on, but it turns [00:43:00] out that cycle Superhighway 3 right from the centre of London out to Canary Wharf literally only had a few sets of traffic lights and it's pretty much separated cycleway the way. And the famous embankment cycleway which starts at the Parliament House, Westminster, and goes pretty much all the way down past the front of the city on the River Thames.

Uh, really is, it's smooth, it's wide, it's incredibly heavily used, and really something to experience. And then on to Paris. And if London exceeded my expectations, then Paris further exceeded my higher expectations. Because of course, we've all been hearing a lot about Paris. Well, anyone who follows the micro mobility space, uh, has been hearing a lot about Paris, and Mayor Anne Hidalgo, and what's been happening over the last seven or eight years.

But I think the wider world, We'll hear a lot about that over the next few weeks as the Paris Olympics plays out. You can imagine [00:44:00] all those American anchor commentators, uh, saying, well, what's going on here and all these bicycles everywhere, but, um, it really was remarkable. Uh, there's some incredible work done, not perfect, still delivery vehicles parked in bike lanes, et cetera, but just the sheer, the volume of people riding and the range of ages, types of bikes.

Just the range of humanity, riding, and the sheer volume in a city, you know, I was a racing cyclist. I lived in Paris for a season in 1983. I raced for a team based in France, and I can tell you there was no cycling infrastructure back when, apart from the Vincennes Park, where there was a triangular thing, a bit like Centennial Park in Sydney, more like a recreational training loop.

That was the only infrastructure in Paris that I was aware of. in that season that I was there. So I've been back since, but it's really come on incredibly in the last few [00:45:00] years. And then onto Frankfurt for the Eurobike show, world's biggest bike show. Frankfurt, to be honest, is quite a grubby city.

There's a lot of people smoke, a lot of people vaping. There's a lot of rubbish on the ground. I'm sure the Frankfurt tourist department would be horrified by what saying, but that's the reality that hits you when you get out of the, the main train station there. Um, incredible bike show and a huge bike show, 150, 000 square meters of gross exhibit space, 1900 exhibitors, about 70, 000 public and trade visitors from around the world.

So a massive, massive show and amazing tech coming, amazing levels of investment in cycling, especially e bikes, motors, drive systems, AI tech. But um, Frankfurt itself, yes, it's better than any Australian city in terms of its bike lanes and transport infrastructure, but it's not, it's not as good as Paris.

It's probably on a par with London in many [00:46:00] ways. And then lastly, a day in Singapore, which I've read is doing a lot of stuff with cycling. And it may be, but it's still got a lot of straight wide four, five, six lane roads, which allow for very high speed driving. Mind you, it's the first city in the world that introduced congestion charging back in the 1970s.

And they also have a tax. Very steep tax. I believe currently it sits at about 70, 000. Basically, it's a market driven thing where if you want to buy a car, you first have to buy the license to own a car, the right to own a car. And I believe that license currently will cost you about 70, 000 or so before you buy the car.

So it's a way of capping the number of cars

the city. And certainly Singapore's clean, on time, clean public transport system is very important. And so on. So it's, it's not, it's not all bad by any means Singapore. did see some cycling, but just nowhere near as much as London, Paris or Frankfurt.

Irene McAleese: Yeah.

Phil Latz: So that was [00:47:00] my trip in a nutshell.

Uh, anything that you would like to say before we wrap up the episode?

Irene McAleese: Well, yeah, just, just a couple of reflections on your trip, actually, there. Um, firstly, it's great that you, you got to see Paris, because that's what Melinda was saying, wasn't it, in, in her, um, wrap up, that she wants, you know, if only more people could see that. Um, and it is, it is hopeful to see, you know, what the Olympics is going to bring those, those more eyes on, on this city, looking at that transformation, um, gives me some hope for Brisbane because the Olympics are going to be held in Brisbane, um, in 2032.

So I, you know, sincerely hope that Brisbane can seize the mantle, um, in that way and, um, use it as an opportunity to make that transition. Um, Yeah,

Phil Latz: from Brisbane delegation going to [00:48:00] Paris. they'll see, you know, the mayor, et cetera, I believe. Thanks for your time. they'll see it firsthand. They'll experience it and eight years, they've got time to do something about it

Irene McAleese: do, yeah,

Phil Latz: so hope it does have an impact

Irene McAleese: yeah, I mean, I, you know, London has certainly changed massively from when Phil and I lived there. Um, and, and Singapore as well, know, that was, Phil and I also lived in Singapore for a couple of years and not sure if you're aware, but that, that's actually where the idea of See.Sense came, up because Philip had been riding, um, as a commuter in London and then we moved to Singapore and it was actually the, the difference in Singapore was this sort of He felt much more unsafe.

So the cars will definitely come closer to you. There's a culture there of this kizo thing of, let me first, so they, they'll, they're quite happily cut in on you a lot closer and and stuff. So that's where, um, we actually got the idea for See.Sense to sort of

Phil Latz: Well, [00:49:00] I think in, a matter, as a matter of fact, I think you mentioned that in the first micro mobility podcast, when I interviewed yourself and Philip

think, think Singapore came up.

So on that note, I think we probably should wrap up. So I'd like to say to everyone. Thanks for listening. We're planning to do a report podcast once a month, and if you want to find out more, visit the podcast page at micromobilityreport.

com. au, and you can also subscribe so you don't miss a future podcast. And until then, keep riding.